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Closer Look: FIRE INVESTIGATORS
Unlock the secrets of fire investigation with our latest episode, where seasoned investigators Scott Kuhlman and Chastity Owens narrate their interesting lives in the meticulous world of fire and explosives investigation. Through their eyes, we traverse the challenging educational pathways and the diverse roles within the public and private sectors of this critical field, offering you a rare glimpse into a profession that blends bravery with intellect.
We contrast the split-second decision-making of firefighting with the detailed scene analysis conducted by fire investigators—two sides of the same coin, yet worlds apart in approach. Our guests open up about the intricacies of establishing credibility, the weight certifications hold in court, and the impact of mentors who shape the future of fire investigation. It's a conversation that not only enlightens but also pays homage to the unsung heroes who often work behind the yellow tape.
Enjoy the deep exploration into the adrenaline-infused intersection of fire investigation, court testimonies, and emerging safety threats, including the volatile nature of lithium-ion battery fires. Join us as we recount personal tales from the field, reflect on the infamous John Orr scandal, and discuss the international implications of fire safety education. This episode promises to leave you with a profound appreciation for the dedication and skill that goes into uncovering the truth behind the flames.
Thanks for taking the time to listen in. Please leave us 5 stars on Spotify & Apple Podcasts with a review. THANK YOU!
Scott and Chastity, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, yeah, thanks for coming on. We've been trying to plan this, scott, for quite some time. It's been a while. Yeah, it has been a long time coming, but thank you for spending time on this Saturday and coming out. We really appreciate it. Got a few things to talk about, but, scott, our relationship goes back because we worked together in the fire department for as long as I've been on 16 years. Yeah, it's gone by fast, dog, it's a long time. Yeah, it's gone by really fast. Now we met in the fire service, but how did you meet Chastity?
Speaker 2:So Chastity. So in the path that I've taken in the fire service I've kind of gravitated towards fire investigation and I've done both private work along with the public work. Chastity has worked with me at a private company and she was originally hired as an evidence tech but she got an education that allowed her to do fire investigation. So she would come with me and she would process scenes with me and she was very, very good at it. So we kind of became buddies through that. And then our department that we previously worked for we got absorbed by another department and we're so busy that I couldn't do private work anymore. But we've stayed in touch, okay. So that's how Chastity and I I mean she's kind of part of our family now my wife and her they get along. We include her in everything.
Speaker 3:So I'm like an adopted daughter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's our third child.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cool. Now, how did you get into fire investigation Chastity? Because you're not. You're not a sworn in firefighter right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm not a public anything entity, so You're missing out, trust me yeah people always ask me what department are you with? It was actually an accident, so the school that I went to. Can I plug my school? I want to do that.
Speaker 1:You can plug Eastern Kentucky.
Speaker 3:University Wait.
Speaker 1:Kentucky.
Speaker 3:Eastern Kentucky University.
Speaker 1:Is that?
Speaker 3:where you're from. I'm from Kentucky.
Speaker 1:Yo, south of Kentucky, what people need? I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3:So anyway, so I just went to that school because it was about 30 minutes north of where I'm from, just to that we're told we need to go to college. So we go to college, yeah, and I was two years in and had no idea what I was going to do. I'd claim two different majors and I took a placement test based off of the majors that were in my school, and fire and forensics were in my top five.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 3:And so they put me in the fire program and I fell in love with it and then got a job offer in Southern California. And here I am.
Speaker 1:When did you come out to California?
Speaker 3:Five years ago 2018.
Speaker 1:Okay, you seem like you're losing your accent just a little bit, it's still there, it's still there a little. Okay, so Scott's wearing off on you. I don't know I was like well shit no oil.
Speaker 2:I say this every time Ask her her favorite drink. What's your favorite drink?
Speaker 1:Sprite.
Speaker 2:There you go, dude Sprite.
Speaker 1:Sprite.
Speaker 2:Every time we go to dinner or we take her out to lunch. It's Sprite. I'm like, oh, sprite.
Speaker 3:No, the waiters do. They're always like. Excuse me.
Speaker 4:It's.
Speaker 1:Sprite. What did you say?
Speaker 4:Sprite. So how long did the like when you were from school, when you pursued the fire side of the investigation, like what was that like getting into that field? Did you go volunteer somewhere, or was it kind of just there's, you know, because I don't know the private side of investigations too much. So how was that process?
Speaker 3:So I got dragged into it. A company the first company that I worked for actually came to our school to recruit us out of our senior year. So I had a job offer in Southern California almost right away, Wow. So I graduated in May and I was on the job in August, so but it was an evidence tech first and I like kind of promoted up to fire investigator and then, yeah, now here I am.
Speaker 1:Well, how tough are those classes? Because, let's be real, here we take fire service classes to get certain certifications right. We call them. They're firefighter classes. But what is that studying like? How was that schooling? Was it difficult, easy?
Speaker 3:Honestly for me. I would say it was easier than my gen eds because I liked it. I liked what I was doing and it was very hands on. So it's like I don't know if you've ever been a part of like CFEI training. Have they done any investigation stuff?
Speaker 4:No, it's fancy. All I know is undetermined electrical.
Speaker 3:That's about a percent of the case Absolutely, and one of my reports Usually when I talk to someone on the public side they're like you know, it's undetermined, but probably electrical, usually unless it's Scott.
Speaker 1:Scott's the man. I put that out there Scott's the man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we would do a lot of hands on stuff. So they had these concrete cells, 12 by 12 cells. So instead of building them over and over again, they were just concrete and they only had to build the inside and we would do like hands on burns in school the last two years of my college degree and then we also did. One of my professors was a FBI bomb squad retiree, so he would build IEDs and explode like cars and stuff and then we had to do like real-time explosives investigations too. It was really fun.
Speaker 2:No way really.
Speaker 3:So it was actually. It was difficult when we had to do like the paperwork side and the reports and the tests, but the hands-on stuff was so much fun, it just kept you right into it, okay so.
Speaker 1:I know they can't do this at the school. They can't blow up a car in the parking lot. Did they take you to an FBI site, or was it somewhere out in the middle of nowhere?
Speaker 3:So you've never been to Kentucky.
Speaker 1:No man.
Speaker 3:It's rural. So yes, we did do it at the college it was just you had to drive back into. I, just like we had to drive back into a field. So it was like maybe like a five to seven minute drive back into this field area where we did our burns and our explosions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so rad we do that here. It might be a nightmare.
Speaker 2:So, Tim, the question was what's the difference between fire? And then her education?
Speaker 3:and because Public and private yeah public and private education.
Speaker 2:She comes out with a full of bachelors in science, and so it encompasses chemistry, all the stuff that we don't get on the public side, but we'll get it if we seek it right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So for investigation here I can speak specifically to California you need 120 hours of school to meet the minimum standard to be a fire investigator here in California, but you still don't have a degree and it doesn't cover chemistry at the level that you would if you went to EKU and we don't come out with a BS.
Speaker 2:So they're just very more technical and where ours is kind of more on the job training, yeah yeah, so we're probably going to start a debate here, but I always like, look, what I bring is as a firefighter I've been asked to deploy hose lines and then as a captain I've been had to make decision where we deploy, deploy hose lines, because they have to understand where the fire is going, what it's doing, in order to put it out right. One of our old department things that I always remember is where's the fire going to be in five minutes? So I got to put my hose line in there, knowing that it's going to take some time for it to get deployed. So I'm like, look, I bring the experience of firefighting and having to figure out where it's going to be, where yours has all been burned in a box, and then she'll say what.
Speaker 3:Okay, this isn't our biggest debate.
Speaker 2:No, but let's debate this one first.
Speaker 3:But okay, so this isn't our most interesting debate, because I do agree to an extent of that. I don't agree with the people who are telling me that I'm not. I wasn't as experienced or I wasn't gonna do as good of an investigation just because I hadn't been in a burning building 100%.
Speaker 2:You're one of my favorite fire investigators.
Speaker 3:And that was my biggest problem when I first started, because I was young and they were like you've never fired, done firefighting, you don't know, and so I really had to prove myself in the first three years and having him as a mentor definitely helped, because he spoke for my reputation too, because I am good at my job and I really love my job. So that's not really a huge debate, because I agree on your level of what you say about it, but I don't agree on some of the other guy's level.
Speaker 4:I think it's just one of those things it's easy to dismiss because you don't come from the suppression side of it, like the active suppression side, because everything that Scott just listed, those are influences of what the damage or the behavior of the fire can dictate with what you're doing. So, not having that background, like when you've literally been inside of places, it's easy to dismiss that like, yeah, you don't know the experience, but it's also like experience is subjective to a certain extent anyway, Because, if you're as an investigator, you're not.
Speaker 4:I had an active fire, unless you are, because I don't know all the sides of it. But for the most part it's just interpretation of what you get when you get there. So, it's like, yeah, we create a lot of water damage, that's what we do, or we used to pull all of everything off the walls to make it very, very difficult.
Speaker 3:The department still do.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but that used to be a thing. It was like you go in and we'd like race each other to see how much drywall we can pull off the walls. You know what I mean. And then at the end, the investigator shows up and goes what the heck guys. You're like it's clean, it's not going to start again.
Speaker 3:It's definitely a learning curve. So I would say to that point is the learning from the public side is real, in real time learning, and then we're in school watching the videos of it happening or learning the patterns after it's happened and they're having to describe to us, based off of their real time experience, why we're seeing what we're seeing. So that's kind of how the difference in experience was we didn't get to see the patterns form or why they were forming.
Speaker 2:We got to explain why it was, and so I guess that's kind of I'm not saying it makes you better than or less than, it's just we bring a different side of the experience to the investigation. But then I would argue. The other side for your level of education is you've been technically trained much deeper, with much more depth and breadth of the technical aspect of how these are done.
Speaker 2:And so you will eventually get the experience. I mean, you're already getting experience, but I'm just saying it's just coming from two different ways, but at the end we're all looking at the same fire. So but I know that's a big debate we have, although she said we have another one.
Speaker 4:I was like hold on what's the biggest debate. What do you know what the biggest?
Speaker 3:debate is I don't.
Speaker 4:I don't, yes, you do.
Speaker 3:Oh dude. The NAFI, the NAFI CFEI and the IAAI CFI.
Speaker 2:I don't really think that's a debate.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of that that's being thrown out right now, a lot of acronyms, so it doesn't even have to go into this podcast we don't even have to waste time on it.
Speaker 3:So it's National Association of Fire Investigators, and then the IAAI is the International Association of Arsut Investigators.
Speaker 2:And let's tell them what that's about. So when you're in the investigation field, your goal is to become a certified fire investigator and what that means is you've been validated and tested by an outside third party to show that you've met a minimum standard, that you can answer a test, that you've done the training and that you've met a minimum criteria. And in our world, our being the public side. At the department we currently work for, they want you to get that within the next couple of years Because it's a lot of clout and court Shows you've been evaluated OK In the private world.
Speaker 3:Did you say clout?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm impressed.
Speaker 2:Ok, continue, I have a couple 75 cent words in there, continue, continue. I'll break out the dollar words later. So, in the private world though, you have to have a CFI, or the insurance companies won't look at you. So there's a couple ways. No, you have to have a CFI.
Speaker 3:I don't. I didn't but continue. We have a debate on this, See. Continue, though.
Speaker 2:So there's levels of CFI. So for us we have International Association of Firefighters. That's something for us Rawland and probably a lot of your listeners. Right yeah, for the fire investigator, we have International Association of Arts and Investigators.
Speaker 3:Arts and Investigators.
Speaker 2:And they give you a CFI. And then there's another third party called National Association of Fire Investigators.
Speaker 3:And there's a CFE, so it's Certified Fire and Explosion Investigators.
Speaker 2:So just to get to the point of the arguments, unless you're in this, it's probably boring.
Speaker 3:It doesn't really matter yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I put IAAI currently above Nafi and she does it.
Speaker 3:No, I do. That's not the debate. The debate is that I don't know this debate. Yes, you do, I'm going to comment on my voice.
Speaker 2:We used to argue about it.
Speaker 3:I'm arguing about something.
Speaker 4:I don't know, I want to hear it. Yeah, yes, linda.
Speaker 1:Well, here's what I'm seeing, though is yes, you come from a private sector, he's public, but it seems like you both complement each other very well. Yeah, it's like you feed off each other. You're learning certain things because she has a degree, but you're learning things because he's on the fire side.
Speaker 3:he's got the experience. I mean, you can ask her something better personally, the communication is very helpful, especially when I get them in Orange County. I can call him or Brad or somebody and be like, hey, this is what I got. Can you give me anything? What's the incident number?
Speaker 1:And what a better mentor. How many years you got announced?
Speaker 2:Scott Fire service. Yeah, I'm going to hit 30 years.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's 30 years. Are you coming in?
Speaker 4:You're right there, doc, the big 3-0. Yeah, Dude, yeah, congratulations.
Speaker 1:That's huge. But think about you know you're well respected in the fire service. You've done well with your career, You've worked through the ranks and some people know you are a fire investigator and you were highly sought after and you're very good at what you do. So what better way to have a mentor than Scott, who's also very personable? I look back at my career. He was hard on me when I first started, but now, looking back and seeing how well I've done, I see why he was so hard. I'm like, oh, it's almost like your parent. I see my parents now.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 1:I'm like I get it. You know, like when my dad used to shut the lights off in the house all the time, like, what are you doing right Now? I have my own home, like dude, shut the lights off. You got these bills, man, so you've done really well with your career. How did you get into fire investigating, or even why? What was the draw for you to do that?
Speaker 2:Were you guys around when there was Bill King? Excuse me, bill King or Lou Kingman.
Speaker 1:I remember those names.
Speaker 4:They weren't on Bill had just retired, maybe a year or two before we had gotten hired.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I was just six months on before. Ok.
Speaker 2:So those two gentlemen were fire investigators, and Bill King was a good buddy of mine and there was a fire investigator before that name, willie Dumas, who was very well respected in the industry, and so it's something I'm like OK, and my other friend who worked for a local agency here. He became a fire investigator.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:But I'm like I don't know more than this guy, Like I could be doing this right. So I'm like maybe I should look into. So Bill King encouraged me and at the time I was a paramedic and at the time in our agency you can only be a captain. So they said, look, we're not getting a lot of interest, we're going to open up to everybody. So I put in and I was selected, but it was some kind of quasi, like they were the two day guys and then I would just come in and help as needed, which is fine, and I lived in the city at the time.
Speaker 4:Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was super easy to go in. So that happened. And then we went through budget cuts. Bill retired, they gave away the 40 hour spot. So I wrote a program and we kind of called it suppressigators your suppression, and then you shift to an investigator when you're done right Suppressigators.
Speaker 4:So it's in the name of my punk band.
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of this I've taught a lot of students here in California. It's always break it in. There's full time investigators, then there's suppressigators, which is the firefighter that turns in the investigator after the call, and then there's the inspector. The inspectors who also do investigation, and each one is unique in its own way, but that's how I got into it. And then we developed a program where we, when you guys come in, you could be level one, level two and there's some bones tied to it.
Speaker 2:And then that's what we did. So the thing about Chastity 9 that we get along really well at and you may have a touch of it too is we have ADHD and it's roaring. Your mind is never. You're pointing at me, yes.
Speaker 1:OK, yes, you're correct. Yeah, I was like yeah, you're spot on with that one, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So we've learned to connect through that. And my poor wife? She just tolerates us.
Speaker 3:It's hilarious.
Speaker 2:It's hilarious Because we're just going a mile a minute, so you can never learn enough in this field. If you want to learn about solar panel fire, then you can go down a rut. If you want to learn about chimney fires or any fires.
Speaker 3:Dryer vents, anything.
Speaker 2:And there's a field unto itself. So this racing mind we both have will never, you won't, run out of material. And then you can apply it to the job, so that's why I've stayed in it. So I'm one of the only older guys that stayed in this long.
Speaker 1:How long have you been in the investigation? 24 years, oh my gosh dude. Man that's been a while. That's a long time. It's been a while what? Getting into investigation a lot of people. So people know you also are kind of like a peace officer, right, because you have to go to court. You're armed at times, right?
Speaker 2:So we currently work. We are sworn, yeah. So we have a firearm, we have to qualify, and I was just in court yesterday. So, yeah, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Ok, I got to know here when you had to go to your first court appearance. How stressful was that.
Speaker 2:Well, I have to think back because, remember, I've done it.
Speaker 4:You've been here a lot Over 20 years. 24 years ago Did it ever stand?
Speaker 1:like did you ever get caught in the stand? Like, ah, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Did you miss? Spell something? There's no way. There's no way. You're the expert, huh yeah.
Speaker 3:Really. You're such a perfectionist. I never would have expected that, because.
Speaker 1:I've gone to court. I say it's because I've gone to court once on a medic thing, right, because the rest is there's some of that. Anyways, it was a nightmare, dude. I got full aid because some of my spelling was off on when we still had the writing the PCRs. Was this a deposition?
Speaker 2:or actual. Were you in court? No, was there a judge in the room? Yes, oh, so OK.
Speaker 1:You're in court, yeah it was legit.
Speaker 2:It was stressful, dude, and was it for a medical? Yes, and were you probably what? They weren't going after you? You were probably a witness to something. Yes, that's what it was. That's usually the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but they pulled the PCR dude and some of my spelling was off. They're like what does that mark mean? I'm like I don't know dude. They're fine Dude. It was a nightmare. I left there so embarrassed.
Speaker 4:I was just like. I feel like I shouldn't be a medic anymore. You come in as the specialist and you leave going like what am I doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why I wonder, Because I remember you were talking about you'd go to court all the time and I was thinking, dude, that's got to be stressful, that has to be a nightmare, it's one of those.
Speaker 2:You know me so I like to argue, and you know my union.
Speaker 2:You're very good at arguing yeah, so I don't mind it. And it's one of those things like I don't know if you remember when you were in school and the grades come out and you're like, oh man, this is not going to be good. I was always the other. I'm like, oh, this is going to be good because I can show my parents that I've been working, because I've worked hard. So when I go to court, because I do put a lot of time and effort into my investigations, I'm like bring it on, let's go. Do I get nervous? Yeah, you still get nervous, but it's going to be like oh, did I not do the right spelling? But it's not on your determination of the origin and cause which that would win or lose the kids.
Speaker 1:So that's what I would say. That's my first thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean, dude, I mean we have some. The one I just went into Friday. I'm looking, I'm like oh, that's not how you spell, that, you're like oh man.
Speaker 2:I'm going to get nailed on that. But that's just the reality and everybody knows that they can see past that. But I don't really remember the first time I was in court. I remember the first time I was in trial and it was just me and the judge and it was a civil trial. So when we go to investigations, if you arrest somebody it's going to be criminal. Okay, all right so. But sometimes we'll do something that's an accidental fire and then you'll go to what's called the deposition first and it's usually like eight attorneys and they all want to PC you, except for one, because one likes the way you worded it, the other seven don't. That can last nine hours and there's no judge there to stop them from beating up on you. Nine hours. It could be nine, mine was nine hours and they're going through and I prepared and I'm like, okay, this is good. Well, they went to trial.
Speaker 2:So my first trial was with a civil case, excuse me. So I remember, and it was a thermostat issue and the people that lived there didn't know if the thermostat was working or not. They didn't understand how it worked. Got to remember some people don't understand the way we live. So I kept asking like, well, did it go on, they go. We don't know what it said, but we know when it gets cold, it goes on. I'm like, okay, so it was working. Do you know how to do it? We don't even know what this thing does, so I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2:So I'm sitting in the stand. I'm sitting on the stand and the judge is right here and the guy's asking me the attorney's like was it working or not? I'm like, well, your honor, or well, counselor, I can't answer that because they didn't know or not, and so he kept trying to ask it and finding the judge looks down on me because they sit higher than you and he's designed that way for show who's running the court and he goes investigator Coleman, did it work or not? I'm like, oh gosh, so I'm like your honor. The best way I can answer that is that I'm going to say it worked because it did go on, it was cold and that's as much as they knew. But I'm not an expert on how thermostats operate or not. But, yes, and he's like okay, that's all we need. I'm like okay, so that was my first like okay, but that was. You're nervous.
Speaker 4:But I mean I imagine, yeah, especially if it draws out. You know, you go through the deposition, the buildup in time, the angst of now you have to deliver in front of a group you know what I mean and, depending on what you say, maker breaks whoever is involved, right, so there's a lot of moving pieces to those things. It's very interesting. I want I'm sorry I don't have to phrase this what is like the fire investigators like? Or your guys, because I'm sure it varies from people to people, but like what's like your? Oh my God, one day, if I run this investigation, what like? What scenario is that Like? What's like the super bowl of fire investigators, called types Like? What would that be? Does that make sense? Do you want to say that?
Speaker 2:I know what. I know what you're saying, but for me, because I'm on the public side, those fires are if it's truly an intentionally set fire, let's get this person especially send harm or displace people. Those are the one and then they stick right, that you've done a good thrill and complete investigation and that it moves forward and the right outcome is that there's no technical you know, like you technically didn't do this or so. Those for me, those are the ones currently. If I was on the private I'd have a different one.
Speaker 3:I'm curious to see, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't pick one in particular. I think my favorite are the ones that we can, like without a doubt, determine the cause. Those are exciting, because a lot of the time, they do come out undetermined with, like potential causes, and then they go on and on and on, and sometimes the insurance company will cut you off before you get to the point, so I would say, my favorite one ever, though, is do you know what I'm trying?
Speaker 2:to tell.
Speaker 3:I did a church fire.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do, it's so good. Thank you, jesus, you got a church fire.
Speaker 3:Hallelujah. Keep everyone's name out of it yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know, I don't even remember the city, it was perfect, yeah. So I was in the desert somewhere at a church fire and the fire department had told me it was electrical. And so I go into the church and I do my thing and I'm taking my photos and stuff and I'm like staring where the origin is and the electrical box is in the origin the breaker panel and I'm like staring at it. I'm like this doesn't make sense. The patterns aren't. No, this doesn't make sense. So I start digging and I mean you guys don't always have a lot of time to dig to figure out if that is actually what it was.
Speaker 2:Can I interject here? Yeah, go ahead. The no investigator was called on that one. It was just the first in-engine company, remember.
Speaker 3:Are you sure?
Speaker 2:That's what you had told me after we read the report that the first in-engine didn't alert the investigator because he thought it was electrical.
Speaker 3:I don't remember that much. Yeah, that's the case. I was just so excited, yeah.
Speaker 2:So oftentimes if an engine company goes and they think it's electrical, there may be no need for the investigator to come out. Yeah, that's right, so that was the case, yeah.
Speaker 3:So like, for example, if they called Scott and was like we think it's this then he wouldn't have to go out there. So I guess that's what happened on this one. I don't remember that part. But so I'm digging through the debris and I found this like the window had broken and there's a perfect piece of window glass on the floor that had protected the carpet, which means the window had broken early in the fire, and I sent him a picture of it. I was like, oh my God.
Speaker 2:I never would have thought to look for that. This is how nerdy he is. I sort of drive my wife crazy. No, I mean it's excellent, it's rad, so I think I was teaching a class. She sends me this picture of a dirty floor and then she I can see the glass. And she shows me with the glass. I'm like, okay, tell me what that means.
Speaker 3:He didn't respond fast enough. I called him. I was like hello, Look at this.
Speaker 2:She's like well, okay, I'm like I know what that means. What do you think it means? She's like that means the window broke before the fire. So I'm like, yeah, me too, I agree with you, that's great yeah.
Speaker 3:So okay, so the fire patterns like are clearly going to the breaker box, but there was some arcing in the area. So I'm like deciding and I keep digging and I find three perfect Molotov cocktail tips really in the debris tips of them, and then I'm finding the remnants of the beer bottles and stuff and I was like, oh my gosh, and so I call him and he kind of like helps walk me through it because I had never had that instance happen to, where I needed to give it back to someone but nobody called me. So I still have the evidence to this day and I'm going to keep it until, you know, the five years is up and I'm going to put it in a shadow box.
Speaker 1:That's pretty good to say. That's excellent Coming from a firefighter perspective, right. I never would have thought to. Even I would see glass around me or whatever. You know, I'm not thinking that way at all. I'm not trained to think that way. I mean, that's ingenious to me. I was like that's funny.
Speaker 3:Well, in your defense, though, they couldn't have seen that until they dug for a little bit, because all the debris had fallen down.
Speaker 4:So yeah, I got to ask you guys. I don't know how deep it's going to go, but I feel like it's kind of interesting being in that side of the community for fire investigation but over the last like year and a half and this could be a more normal thing, but I've seemed to have seen a lot more stuff when they're talking about these massive like agricultural fires where they have like these big you know whether they're grain industry or you know like I think one of them was like an egg factory, anyways, they're having these huge fires and these like big like businesses like this for like agricultural food processing things like that. Is there like From your guys end, you know? I would imagine like hot topic Tuesday, you know, or whatever websites you subscribe to and things like that. Don't tell me that doesn't exist, I know for hot topic.
Speaker 2:Wednesday, but you're close.
Speaker 3:Wednesday. Yeah, you know what I mean. I have no idea really.
Speaker 4:There's not a thing for the well on the suppression side. There's, you know, just they're. They're training aids, or is all this, you know. But just if there's any consistencies with problems you know this is like nationwide that will receive some kind of information on it, whether it's, you know, it's like traffic collisions or Highway safety, or you know what I mean, just like it could be obscure or it could be very general, but it's just it's happening a lot.
Speaker 3:I would say that's LinkedIn for us Like. I see a lot of stuff on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say it's IWI sends out a Periodical called fire and arson investigator and they'll anything nationwide or internationally known like spontaneous combustion of hay, or whatever yeah they'll have an article.
Speaker 2:So you're like, oh, what's the science behind that? National Association of fire investigators? And then currently I'm the vice president of California Conference of arson investigators. That's a lot. I do training every six months and it's. We have live burns and so we'll go through. What are some of the hot topics are trending, like right now and you guys know, last, so the last February of last year, of this year, I did a whole thing on lithium-ion battery fires because we're in the department we're working for almost once a day, oh really, we're getting a lithium-ion battery fire.
Speaker 1:I believe that I know it's been a huge problem FDN.
Speaker 3:Why that's been a big, big problem my last few investigations, a lot of them, I'd say, out of the last 20, it has to be like at least 10 to 12 of them were lithium-ion batteries. It was. It's insane.
Speaker 2:We're getting a lot of them and now people are getting sorry. People are getting so comfortable with them that the last fire had, which is, I think it was like 48 hours ago they're starting to take them apart and try and put them together or fix them themselves and the guy.
Speaker 2:This is a statement. He's like yeah, my e-bike. My e-bike went bad, so I tried to put the batteries together. And he goes. I saw one row go off and the next row go off and it burnt my couch and the sprinklers came on. But now we're starting to mess with them and I don't even think we fully understand them, right now.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, the general public should not be messing with those batteries. Well, they're so. I mean, even when they burn off, they're so dangerous. That smoke is so bad for you, as we know. Yeah, I mean, we've retired people, unfortunately it's sad, that's, that's true.
Speaker 4:I mean, we're thinking the fire element, but the exposure to that smoke, oh, it's so bad, yeah, so bad and just for people that aren't you know that maybe aren't in the fire industry the lithium-ion they could range from, like lithium-ion small batteries to massive car batteries.
Speaker 4:He says charge the e-sig or you know, like the e-bikes is big as a popular one, because most people To bring the e-bike into the house and I've been on handful of these fires. So it's like you know and it's like well, where to start and you know they'll just have multiple Rechargeable batteries, like in the room right next to a pile of clothes and like all this stuff, and it's like I Would say it's a safe statement that most people take that safety for granted Until something like this happens. But the problem is that one, if it gets big enough, or if it's a large enough battery pack, it's very difficult to put out and you know there's tons of examples with that, with like even the cars, like Tesla's and not the name drop that company. But you know, I mean just a problem for our side of it of one making it safe for the people around and to being able to extinguish the problem. You know so it's just kind of this quandary of issues.
Speaker 4:How's my 75 cent word Quandary? I think yeah, but you know so it's just one of those things. It's like Hopefully it gets better. But the one thing that I think is consistent is that you know, outsource marketing and More and more things are gonna have that. It's like they're not Intrinsically built to the tee. You know they're getting shipped over from pick a country and you know it just doesn't you know. And then it happens. And then they go and you plug them in. You think, oh, they're good and they've been sitting on the charger for three days, or they don't cycle them correctly.
Speaker 3:And you know, it's just, it's a problem that's gonna keep, I think, happening and it's just like a ton of little things too, like using Another charger for that thing just because it fits. That can cause it or so, if you're if you're dropping things like people just don't Realize how dangerous they really are until it happens to them, and then it's like because we see that stuff every day.
Speaker 2:Well, here's something I learned. So when I did that lithium ion class, we did a live burn with it, we had them fail right, and ATF had just come out with a really good study and they showed video of it and they'd show that once the battery because we have two types of lithium ion batteries right, we have the flat ones, the pouch ones that are in our phones, and then we have the cylindrical ones that we have in our drills, or the a Tesla model car will use, and so those cylindrical ones one side will blow out. Well, now it's a rocket, right. Oh, wow. So they'll go 60 to 100 feet. What's? Yeah, they'll fly across a room and ATF has a really good Video of that. So I told we burnt one. I'm like, hey guys, you got to stand back like 60 feet. Sure enough, someone got a little closer, flew and hit him in the leg. It's like I'm like dude, I told you 60 feet, bro. Like what are you doing?
Speaker 1:But yeah, what.
Speaker 2:I learned is that NFPA is currently writing a Document, yeah, about this, and it's changing so much that they're having a hard time keeping up and getting a document. But one of the guys on there told me he goes, scottie goes. Here's what we're learning like when they make these lithium-ion batteries there's an a grade and then there's like a B grade. So your higher-end companies like Milwaukee do all those ones. They tend to buy the a grade and they have these chargers that are they're fit for it, they have safety cutoffs and all it's all high-end stuff. And Well, do you think they just sit there and hold the B grade batteries? No, some company will buy the B grade batteries and then you can buy them on a popular website somewhere for at a very discounted rate, and it doesn't necessarily they're bad, but there don't have all the built-in safety features.
Speaker 2:And what I learned is one of the things that makes a lithium-ion battery fail Is when it goes to zero. I didn't know, I didn't either, so only some of them, though. Yeah, when our drills and stuff go, they say it's out, there's still some battery life in there with the intent that you're gonna charge it and then bring it back up. Well, these other manufacturers that don't have the built-in things don't, they will go to zero and that's a fail point. I never knew that till I took. So it's just crazy all the stuff out there.
Speaker 3:That's interesting. Yeah, we could talk on and on about lithium-ion batteries.
Speaker 2:This is its own show.
Speaker 1:I mean by the way you can go on lithium forever. Yeah, all I know is like when we get them. I luckily I just drive now, but I try to stay away like even though my crew it's like dude, this is gonna be a lithium-ion battery like it stay upwind uphill. Let's freakin take a step back and take our time and figure out, unless, of course, there's a life safety issue. But, it's like again we've had to retire people who had some years left to work that.
Speaker 1:Now they're done because, it took in that smoke. It's like is it worth it? That's why I always think, man, I'm like dang dude, why?
Speaker 2:well, let's talk about life safety and batteries, because, let's say, someone was charging a vehicle. Mm-hmm and the plug was not the right. In every one of these they say don't use an extension cord, right? If? You're charging over and you go in and you fight fire and the ceiling falls on you. What Did that happen to someone in this room?
Speaker 1:it. Yeah, it completely knocked me out. I was gone. The ceiling collapse. Yeah, it felt it was a vaulted ceiling too. Yeah, it was a bit like the whole drywall had come in. I, I don't remember anything. It knocked him out, dude. I was it cold, clocked me and mind you like I was still healing from a TBI from like two years prior.
Speaker 3:Oh, my car accident.
Speaker 1:The short, long story short, you know. I'm like, hey, cool, I'm driving pumping and I don't need to be inside. Like well, we have two probationary fire fighters. I'm gonna go in. My captain had division. We're in the second floor and I remember I stepped into the master bedroom it's vaulted, was super high, like what, 12 feet or something right and I see the firefighters. They're doing her thing and I always try to get pictures of them. So they have to further, you know, to look back on or whatever. So I remember pulling my phone out to the cold pictures, put it away, done, that's, that's it.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't remember anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I wake up, my dudes are pulling me out. I remember, I remember kind of coming to and feeling people tugging on me and I heard made a, made a, made a firefighter down. I was thinking what idiot, come on, who's doing the made a right? And then I was like, come to, like oh man, that's me. And so they started dragging me out. And then, once they were dragging me, I really came to and I was.
Speaker 1:My first thought was Scott's got some big fun yeah somebody's gonna get this on film maybe, and dragged out of a building. I'll never live it down. So I popped up and I just said what happened, what's going on.
Speaker 4:They're just like, yeah, the ceiling roof came in your.
Speaker 1:whatever I was like, alright, I ended up just walking down the stairs. They rung my bell hard. I had a pretty good concussion wait.
Speaker 3:So okay, I'm confused. It only came down on weren't there other people?
Speaker 1:there was a captain there, but when it fell, I guess I took the brunt of it and it knocked him to the side. Oh, so it. We were like on opposite sides of the room. All of it came down and he was like pinned up against the wall. Oh he said he was calling for my name, didn't, and they just saw my boot sticking out or whatever.
Speaker 3:So that's terrifying.
Speaker 1:Do, oh yeah, but it's like drywall falling from that high and whatever. Remember whatever else came. I never really saw what else came in, but like it, it freaking it flattened me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd See. I don't want any part of that, I just don't want to be and T.
Speaker 4:I'll say this I've been tagged by a lot of drywall like yeah, and when you know, when you're not red, you know whether it's dry or it's like waterlogged. Either way it's not comfortable. But when you don't know, it's coming, I Can only imagine because, like I've been lucky, I've been knocked down a couple times, but like it hit me, like I pushed me forward, not like straight down on my head, you know, and you're just like, oh shit, is anyone looking? You know I mean, like I got to get up.
Speaker 2:Well, let's talk that drywall. So it came from the ceiling. So we know it's 5, 8, which is, I know, that's some the geek, my man. Yeah so you pick one of those up. That's very heavy. Now get some distance 12 feet to your head, which is about five feet, I'll tell you. But that's getting some inertia. Yeah, that's gonna clean your clock, it's gonna. It is gonna knock you down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was and the cause of that fire was a electric vehicle being charged.
Speaker 2:Oh, is that what it was? Wow, he used an extension cord and so he, because he has 240 outlet, was inside a laundry room and so it caused a fire inside the concealed space in the wall, traveled up the wall, started getting into the attic. Oh, wow, and so that's why it we can that it came down.
Speaker 3:Okay, see, that was ADHD. Right there is. I Was wondering how it was gonna come back to the Tesla, because I didn't say, I didn't say Tesla, I said an electric vehicle used, we did, we did. Actually we can cut that up, but um, no, it started with that. But then you said and you pointed at him and then he just started with the story about drywall coming down on his head and I was like whoa wait, how did this?
Speaker 1:he's good at the full circle.
Speaker 1:Literally been sitting here waiting for the circle around well, scott, you actually brought a pretty good point and it was about doing investigations where people lose their homes or someone's burned or killed. I think a lot of people don't understand the different Areas of the fire service that people can get into and do, whether it's inspections, fire investigating or if you want to be in suppression side right, you can go through firefighter, engineer, promote all the way up. But I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of fire investigation because If my parents house were to catch on fire or something happened and when we're going to pass away, I would want to know what the heck happened, what's going on? It was it arson? Was it an accident? Is it something fail in the house? So, like the importance of our fire investigators, private public getting the education and making sure you know your job, because I'm sure they're also, just like in any job, five investigators who aren't that good at their job.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:I would say you know you've got A, b and C. People have passed the test right. But here's what I'll tell you about that. I've been very fortunate to teach up and down the coast of California now for about 10 years. But 13 years, I'm getting old and all these investigators, they want to do a very good job, like they're into it for the right reasons. They want to do it. They've got that inquisitive. You can see them. They're like how did this start? I want to know. And if they're taught right how to break down a problem, how to use a scientific method, how to go through the process, and they're shown right, then they usually do a good job because they're taught the right way and they want to do a good job, they want it. But if they're not taught right and that there's kind of I'll just say this or something, then they and they don't have that training. They're frustrated and you don't get. So it's not their dedication, I think it's their level of training.
Speaker 3:It's definitely who taught them and how they're taught, for sure.
Speaker 2:Because you can't get into this work and be late. I mean. So you know, every call I go on if the captain doesn't take it. I'm writing a six to 10 page report, and so you know.
Speaker 4:And what do?
Speaker 2:we we all went into the fire service, right? No, no, not you.
Speaker 4:Yours is one paragraph. Okay, cool, Because that's where it's we need to talk after this.
Speaker 2:But if I take it from you it's a six to eight page report because I'm held as such a bigger standard of what I have to document and show that I did.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that makes total sense Because there's a you have to. I'm sure you learned about this in college. I know you know, but I can't remember his name. He worked for Glendale Fire, John Orr.
Speaker 3:John Orr yeah.
Speaker 1:In the nineties? Right, was it the nineties? Yeah, the best, because. I thought about John Orr, when, when, because Jordan was talking about, hey, hot topics, right, because I remember watching a documentary and they couldn't figure out, like, where are all these huge fires coming from, and how are we getting such a good video? What's going on here? And long behold, it was a fire visecater and this guy was teaching, allegedly yeah, allegedly Can nitty come out of the woods with a cigarette butt and you'd be,
Speaker 4:like this was it I got it, you're not wrong. No, I know I read the.
Speaker 1:You are not, so the funny thing about that is and I say this this is not to say like fire, visecators are bad, but that's one that stuck out to me where it's like they couldn't figure out and long. Behold this dude who's got great video. He's always figuring out. He saw it after he's teaching.
Speaker 4:Right, cause he was very prestigious in the field, right? Is that where it led to he had?
Speaker 3:created himself as a prestigious person because of he was starting it.
Speaker 4:And then, so you want to be good but don't be too good. People are going to start to be like God.
Speaker 2:Well, if you can walk into a brush fire and walk right to your area of origin and find the thing I mean that quick, honestly guys that's hours of dig out and trying to exactly find out where you're so in in the wildland world. You have a general area of origin and then from there you find a specific origin area.
Speaker 2:That takes a while, and then, to find what started within there takes. So if you're just walking up and you're like that's kind of a clue, Something's going on here, but that's right. So the the I'm associated with California Conference of Arts and Investigators and so John Orr would go to that and he was pretty prestigious in that because he was able to find the source of the fire pretty rapidly and consistently.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Like this is great.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know we have a lot of undetermined.
Speaker 2:So, and that's not a bad thing that just means I don't have enough information at this time. Yeah, so he would go to a lot of our trainings, and at that time they were held in Fresno, and so he would start fires in Fresno. He was at the conference, that's crazy. Yeah, but you know he's in jail now and he's in communication with some of our board members and he wants to speak and say why he's innocent, by the way.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Really Wow, so we're not really entertaining that.
Speaker 2:We don't want to give him a platform. But, yeah, I mean, that's a. I'm surprised you knew that, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:It stuck out to me. I remember it was some documentary. I don't know where I watched it, but it stuck out to me a lot because the videos were so good. Yeah, there's really good video, but they were. He was videoing. It was coming from him, I believe. I think on some of them. I don't know that.
Speaker 3:I can't remember, I've never seen a documentary. You know I've listened to the podcast. I'm not seeing the documentary.
Speaker 4:Could the videos would show like it would be after the fire gets going and he would happen to be in the area and videotaping it. So it'd be like. But this is like more than the start, Like this thing is ripping and you know, and then it'd be like he would be the investigator, and then it would take a very short amount of time for him to find it.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean not to mention the in-depth book he wrote about.
Speaker 2:all of it Like but, he's innocent, he was just slumped at it. No, he actually wrote. He wrote a book and it detailed everything he did, but he was naming it something else. And then another weird thing is that the treasure that I currently work with, dennis, was his partner. Oh, wow, yeah, I told him. I'm like look, dennis, I would love to get you on stage or on a podcast. We need to capture your experience with him. He's a really cool guy. He's a little older than me by a lot and he's a super cool dude, but he's like, yeah, he's my part, but he doesn't really ever like talk about it.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's, it's it's a control that you know what I mean. Like, well, it's a black mark on the fire service, right? I mean I'm sure the investigation world took a huge hit after it came out and he was convicted, right, you have to know.
Speaker 2:Maybe I mean, once again, I got in in 99. So, yeah, but that didn't really reflect what we were about. But anytime, I mean, look, the only thing we have is the public trust, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I know what agencies you work for and what you work for and I know the agency we came from. We never wanted to break that public trust.
Speaker 2:I mean, we had a love affair with our citizens, with our council, and we love to protect our citizens there, and it was a hard choice for us to leave, but we knew that we could not protect the citizens the way they needed to be after a while, and so transitioning over to a bigger department was better for us. And I think we still are guys and I'm not saying the other inch done, but I know from you guys I think we still bring that forward to the people that we serve. Yeah, I mean, I still love going on calls and working with our citizens and I make sure they have a blanket. I just love that, Because what if that was my mom, dad, or if you were on duty and it was your family?
Speaker 2:I want to make sure they're taken care of your kids. That were warned through wife. I mean, that's just yeah. So did we take a hit? Maybe more from other firefighters?
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, Like, oh yeah, would you just start it, Right yeah yeah, I just remember that John Orton thing stuck out to me so much I was like dude, what Our own one of our own does doing that, that's crazy dude, it definitely hurt.
Speaker 4:Well, it happens to be crazy people. Yeah, every field, I mean any industry. You know it's going to be that way. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:It is what it is Got a unique story. Now you two. Maybe we could talk about this, but aren't you starting your own company, getting private company doing investigations?
Speaker 2:No, no, she's currently working for a private and then I'm still with public. We've talked about it, but it's probably something out in the future.
Speaker 3:To be determined.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean just because we enjoy working with each other and we're always consulting back and forth, yeah, but I mean this year, like I said, so currently on VP, I'll be president this year. Oh, whoa, what the heck. So the big, the big, interesting thing, and I don't think we need to step our game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm in of the United States. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Honestly vote for you. Done for California Conference of Arts Investigator. Big, big honor. I love bringing the training, but the bigger thing and you know this is that I'll be going to Cambodia in February. Dude, huge, that's huge. Yes, so the government has.
Speaker 2:So there's a nonprofit called Love in Action and they work closely with the Cambodian government and they've been working with them for 12 years, specifically been working in the Southeast for about 27 years, and the government wants their number. One ask from their fire department is they want an arts and investigation program and then they'll want like heavy rescue training, things like that. So they reached out to firefighters for Christ and then they sent a mass email out. It landed on my desk in my department. So me, and there's a officer embedded in our section and we teach all around California.
Speaker 2:So it said we're looking for two investigators with law enforcement experience, blah, blah, blah. So I just went into his room and I'm like, hey, dude, I'm like if this doesn't cry out to you like, this is what we do, we love it, and so we're gonna. It's a volunteer, so we're gonna pair away out there. We're gonna go out there for about 10 days. We're setting up a curriculum now, but what a cool opportunity we're. Fire investigations can take me across the world, right right to help out, and I mean I'm just like, how cool is this?
Speaker 4:Well, what's cool, awesome. Well, one congratulations, yeah. Two, like what a you're like everything that you said. What a unique opportunity it is to go do that and it's in a field that you love and you're clearly passionate about it. And now you know you're basically writing the program that this organizations or people are going to be interpreting in their field. So that's it's like an honor and got to be pretty stoked, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's just cool and I hope that we can foster relationship with our department so that more specialties we have can be shared with, because they really want to do well. So it's just a. It's just a cool thing.
Speaker 1:Well, it's cool because you're, you've got plenty of time on here and the reality is right. We're our work and what we do is serving people. You know, we probably won't know until the day we die the amount of lives that we've affected. Right, help save, whatever it may be, and they can go on and help other people and change lives. But to be able to take that and now go to a different country and start something there, you don't know what's going to happen with those investigators and fires they solve and lives they affect, I mean it's that ripple effect that we talk about on here all the time. Right, you throw that rock in the lake, right, boom, it hits and just keeps rippling out. I mean it's huge. That's that's you're giving back in so many different ways, so that's. I think that's pretty powerful.
Speaker 2:It's pretty right on and the fact that they asked for it, so you know they want it, yeah, and even though they're not going to speak the same language, so we're going to have to work through that.
Speaker 4:That was my next question I was like what do they speak in Canada?
Speaker 2:They're assigning us both my partner Justin Russell and I interpreters, but so I was telling them like, yeah, so what I like to do at the end of the class, I like to burn, burn, build the burn cells. And they're like, okay, what do you need? I'm like I need this much lumber. I need 12 pieces of drywall per burn cell. And they're like, yeah, I don't. I don't know if they have drywall out there, so it's.
Speaker 1:so I don't know what I'm walking into, so people know and can understand what you're saying. What's a burn cell?
Speaker 2:So to demonstrate certain types of fires, fire development, growth, the dynamics, you'll spend a week learning through the eyes of an investigator not through suppression how it's going, what's what, what fire effects is it leaving all this stuff? And at the end of the class, let's say, jordan and Tim, you guys are taking the class, your group one, your group two, jordan you'll go out, you'll have a burn cell and basically it's an eight foot by eight foot deep, deep and maybe 12 feet wide and I put furniture and carpet and drywall in there and then I let Jordan and his group you burn it wherever you want. I make you predict the burn pattern. Where you think it's gonna do. You're gonna spray paint on the wall and then you burn it and then we watch it develop and then we see if you're right and I film it.
Speaker 2:And then you leave and go to lunch and then I tell him you guys come, you do the burn sale next to it. You do the whole thing. You go to lunch. I come back, jordan, you're gonna go investigate Tim's burn sale. You're gonna go do Jordan's burn sale and then you have to write a report on where you think it started At the end of the class I share the videos and you're either right or wrong, and usually you're right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, oh, that's right, okay, that's what it was about. So the burn sale it looks like a living room or a bedroom or something. Right, You're staging.
Speaker 2:It's just missing the one wall so that you can watch the fire development. Yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 1:That's a good way to learn man, that's smart. Is that something you created or that's kind of been part of the process for all investigators?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did it at ATF. I learned it at the National Fire Academy.
Speaker 3:Oh, we did it in school, but I don't know who started it though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know where it came from. That's pretty rad, that's smart, that's awesome. Now your curriculum for Cambodia. You're gonna have to write all that.
Speaker 2:So no, california has a curriculum based on a document that's called. It's called NFPA 1033. It's the standard to be a fire investigator. So since it's NFPA, which means national fire, I don't know if Cambodia accepts that or not, I don't even know if they have building codes, but I helped the state of me and 14 other people. We wrote the curriculum based around that document, and so it comes to three classes, three four-door classes. So when you're done, you've met every one of the job performance requirements to be an investigator anywhere in the nation. So I'm gonna take that and try and adapt it and thin it out because, they don't speak English.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit of a what. We'll see how it comes out.
Speaker 4:I'm sure. Well, yeah, I mean, just like with anything, the unknown in this is a lot more. And not the information you're bringing, but your delivery to this group of people because you don't know, are they like day one people?
Speaker 4:Are they? I've been told they're day one people? Okay, so just someone who maybe has the interest of it, which is also great. Depending on the translators and your ability through the, you know what I mean. Like, either way, it's a great thing and to have that. If they are really trying to push for a better program via their fire department, then this is a key component of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really have an American sense of humor so I'm really nervous Like you have that snarky, sarcastic kind of like you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:He really feeds off the crowd with, like his jokes at the end. So he's gonna be like do they think I'm funny?
Speaker 4:Well, you're a people person dude. Google best Cambodian jokes. Learn like a short one, like a one-liner. Learn that, open the class with that.
Speaker 3:I wonder what? What is their language? Do you know?
Speaker 2:How about, like that's what she said in Cambodia.
Speaker 3:No, dude, think they'll get that.
Speaker 1:They might.
Speaker 4:That's gotta translate to everyone right, I would say that's a safe one, Michael.
Speaker 3:Scott and I would laugh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Michael Scott is my favorite, Well since you, since you're, you know you're able to get involved with Cambodia Now being this might be different from private to public side but say there's some major fire, that's you know, in Florida, and they're like, hey, we, we need someone who's got good expertise. Can they actually call both of you out to go out there?
Speaker 2:No. So who would cover that would be ATF and they'll have an NR team, the national response team, and in our section, for the department we work for, we have an ATF. He has the dog and so he can be called out at any time and respond anywhere in the nation and probably even outside the nation. I don't know what their contract is oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:And you'll be gone for 14 days. And they are amazing. They come in, they do everything and then, when they're done, they give you a CD of everything they did Nice, clean forms and all the tools they bought. They leave them. They're like this is for your department. We don't want to take it back. Yeah, they're amazing.
Speaker 3:So on the private side, if you have a company that likes you and wants you to go to other states for them, you can if your company's licensed in those states. And then I've known investigators that have went international as well.
Speaker 1:So how does that look for you then, on the private side, like Scott was saying, if the person that works for ATF has a dog, they go for two weeks. Is that the same for you, or is it when the job's done?
Speaker 3:It's when the job's done. So I went to Hawaii. That's a good example, Tough life.
Speaker 2:It was so bad.
Speaker 3:It was terrible, but we were just there for three days, I think, for the job, and then it was done. But if it would have came back to a joint exam then I would have had to go back out there like that whole thing.
Speaker 4:But it's not as extensive as Like recently, like in Maui.
Speaker 3:Like two years ago. No, it wasn't Maui.
Speaker 4:I was like I don't know what you're allowed to talk about, but if you could talk about any of it, then we're gonna go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would have been really cool. How come nothing blue burned? Yeah, Gosh, I know, did you determine?
Speaker 2:the laser in the sky.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:It's good to speak.
Speaker 3:No I went to Lanai oh okay. Yeah, it's next to Maui, but Okay, that's cool, I mean.
Speaker 4:and so with the private side of it, it seems more like the reason there would be a private side of it right is like working like I'm assuming it's through we don't name anything specific but like insurance companies things like that right that need to take a further in-depth look because I'm assuming, outside of not saying a house isn't worth a lot, but you start getting these commercial buildings, big businesses and stuff that kind of bring me back to the agricultural thing earlier.
Speaker 3:Oh, I forgot. You never answered any of that, by the way. I forgot about that, just went out there.
Speaker 4:But you know, is that that's kind of the premise of.
Speaker 3:So for the most part it's. I mean even with residential. They just want their money back if they can, so subrogation comes into that.
Speaker 2:Explain subrogation to Big words. That's what I'm about to explain. That's a dollar. That's a dollar.
Speaker 3:Fifty word A dollar fifty, sorry, so subrogation. So technically, basically, the insurance company wants to go after anyone they can to get their money back. So like, say, a lamp failed and we know that that lamp failed and started the fire, then they would put that manufacturer on notice and then we'd have a joint exam and they would argue whether or not it was a manufacturing error and then the insurance company would get their money from that manufacturer if they won.
Speaker 4:Oh, okay, so, yeah, so that. Oh, I didn't know that. I mean, I don't know, that seems very stressful. Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:So the insurance company will make you whole. So, jordan, you get a fire, whatever terms you've agreed, or insurance you buy. Insurance can be like, okay, you had a fire, I'm gonna make you whole, based on whatever you bought. The insurance company has the ability to go after someone who started the fire, so let's say it was a lamp. Then they're like, look, we're just gonna pay you out, but it's not your fault and it's not our fault, the insurance company. So we're gonna try and go and get our money back, or at least part of it, to keep our insurance rates low. Keep that, I see. So it's called subrogation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's why we go way more in-depth with our investigations on the private side, because we're eliminating all possible causes within an area of origin and you have to really be able to eliminate them. Or they're coming to a lab and we're figuring it out that way with, like an electrical engineer or something like that.
Speaker 1:You guys got a lot of brain power.
Speaker 4:I'm like I don't wanna go through any of that. Just push buttons and read the screen.
Speaker 1:Hey, where am I going? Where's my water?
Speaker 4:supply.
Speaker 1:That's not a care about. Make a laugh, that beer? Yeah, well, one last thing I would do. Wanna ask you so in the fire investigation world, after everything both of you have told us, it's very in-depth, it does take brain power and you both of you are very skilled at what you do what is like the most stressful part and toughest part of being an investigator?
Speaker 3:I'll let you take that one first.
Speaker 2:From the public side. So obviously the criminality of it, and then making sure that it is arson and we never, ever wanna put someone in jail, take away someone's civil liberties. That didn't start a fire. So you're always constantly running through your scientific method did I eliminate this, did I eliminate that? And then, once you're sure, and then you find out, okay, I did good. So the biggest fear is you don't ever want to take away someone's civil liberties incorrectly.
Speaker 2:And the more we're trained, the better we are at this. I do work closely with an attorney from the Innocence Project who she does post-convictions. So let's say, tim, you get arrested for arson but it was a faulty science or maybe it wasn't done right. She would come in afterwards and take your case and show how it wasn't done correctly. So, working with the Innocence Project and seeing how some of these cases weren't correctly done, basically because we weren't trained correctly or there was some bad science applied, you learn those things. But and the other thing and honestly that's hard is now that I'm a little older, anything any call after eight o'clock At night, so I'm right there with you now, oh man.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:I'm so stressed bro.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah Bro, it's rough.
Speaker 3:So stressful.
Speaker 4:Were you guys fans of the show CSI?
Speaker 3:I mean, I've watched it.
Speaker 4:Okay, but that wasn't like maybe more so, because you were already in the biz prior to, but I have curiosity of what intrigued that. You know the movement I only talked about, you know when you were in college, to make the move towards investigation, or arson investigation or no fire investigation. Thank you very much. I was just actually, I was just trying to be funny, but what was?
Speaker 2:it. How's that going for you?
Speaker 4:buddy Honestly. Hopefully better than that's what she said in Cambodia, that would be my Cambodia.
Speaker 1:Oh, what about for the private side? I mean, it seems like you've been traveling doing a lot, but what's the most difficult part, being in the private sector doing fire investigation?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, just from being like empathic, it's kind of tough seeing, if the people are there, how stressed they are about everything, cause they start asking me questions like I'm their adjuster and I'm like I'm so I can't do anything for you, I'm just here for origin and cause, and that's kind of rough. I mean, I can like suggest that they reach out to Red Cross, like stuff like that, but I can't really do anything for them. So that's pretty stressful. But other than that, I would say just like not letting the client down is kind of a little stressful as far as, like you know, sometimes it's absolutely undetermined and I don't have like the ego of like I need to get a cause. It's not undetermined, blah, blah, blah, but sometimes the stress coming from the client is a little stressful. But I refuse to like pick a cause just to pick a cause, cause they want it, you know Right right, right.
Speaker 4:Do you guys ever get like like fraudulent statement stuff, like a lot like where you're like, oh, my house burned down. You're like I had like 150 grand in the back and it's all? It must be gone If this is something you're not supposed to talk about please don't. There's a recent one that we Cause I was joke around with like I'm like if someone steals my car, I'd be like oh you know, I always carry 50 in the back of my truck.
Speaker 3:Well, there was a recent one we both heard about. Like I was on on the private side and he knows from the public side, that was something kind of in that boat, If you.
Speaker 2:if the question stopped at, do you get fraudulent statements?
Speaker 1:Let's go there, you stop there. Yes, yes daily Cause.
Speaker 2:I'm an investigator.
Speaker 1:You know, at once.
Speaker 2:They cause you know, I wear that seven star badge, and so they like, oh, you look like a cop. They still treat us very nice, though, cause then I had my helmet on, so the other thing that's really interesting is the way we get treated. One good story is we had some juveniles setting off some fire, some Christmas trees one year, and so the cops are like, hey, we have the guy here's his house. So we go to the house and the cops are like, yeah, this the kid. So I walk up with all my fire. My, you know, we have the media Regalia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I have the helmet and my boots on and I'm like, hey, dude with the fire. He goes hey, what's up? I'm like, hey, let me see your phone. So he gives me the phone, the cops looking like what? Meanwhile this kid's still on the cops to f off right. And I go what's your code? He goes did you? I go, all right, I guess it in photos or is it in videos? He goes videos, which ones? You guys on the one over there. I'm like, all right, dude, I go. Can you air drop to me? I go, sure, so you get in the cops like what? I'm like, well, you got to treat him nice. Plus, I'm a fire guy and I'm like hey, dude. So, look, we have a program, it's called fire friends. We're not going to, you know, we're going to press charge, but we've got to correct your behaviors Like, okay, cool. So it's just, we are treated different and we never want to lose that Right, we never want to lose that guys.
Speaker 1:The trust and respect for the public is just so important.
Speaker 2:We get the five finger wave and the cops get the one. Oh my God, no yeah, and I feel bad for them because they're all super good, but it's just the way it is right now. Oh, I'm sorry, man.
Speaker 1:Wait, you guys.
Speaker 3:There's bad ones in every field. There's bad firing mosquitoes, there's bad firefighters, there's bad police.
Speaker 4:What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:There's bad everywhere.
Speaker 4:John Orr was a fluke, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, we're all amazing man, but both of you guys thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Honestly, it's great to have both of you on here and talking about fire investigations, because that's such a unsung. Heroes of the fire service. Let's be real, People don't really understand that part. They see us in the shiny red engines riding around right. So what you do is so important in the education, the time and, Scott, you've been doing it for so long Like my man. Well done, my dude.
Speaker 4:You did a long time. Stop saying you're so old dude, you look great.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 4:I don't like. You don't have any gray hair.
Speaker 2:I've been doing it since the 1900s, guys. Yeah, it's just fun.
Speaker 4:That's a good perspective. Fire was invented.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but also Scott. So you know, like dude, it's been such a cool thing to see you promote and go through the ranks and what you do in the fire service and I've honestly appreciated you through the entire career, man. You've inspired me in many different ways and you've encouraged me in many different ways to be who I am. So I always want to tell you that. I just want you to know, dude, like well done my dude. Yeah, thanks, appreciate you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, congrats, yeah, congrats on everything and yeah, just, I think the cool part about this too is, like for anyone who's listening that does have interest in the fire service like suppression isn't the only thing.
Speaker 4:You know Like there's avenues of circulating around whatever interest may be, because there are people that can't be firefighters, like in that way on the suppression side, but it doesn't mean you're hindered by that. You know, and you know a very good example of coming from the private side. You know getting the education experience and now you're crushing it and that's fantastic. Hopefully you guys work something out after you know you're done with your career at the moment. But yeah, and congratulations on the Cambodia thing, man, best of luck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can't wait to hear about how we're doing. Maybe I'll come back and we can share. No, you should talk about it, I think it'd be a great thing. I'll bring some.
Speaker 1:That'd be a six-story. Maybe we can hold it up or something. This is me here. I was right here.
Speaker 2:So here I am eating fried banana, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that would be. Honestly, it'd be really cool to have you back up once that's done and wrapped up and just talk about it, because that's going to be a heck of an experience.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll bring Justin with me, if you don't mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would be a really good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it's both of you. Welcome on here any time it was a pleasure to have you both on here. We usually do a. Let's go on three. And, by the way, before we do this, I do have challenge coins for both of you.
Speaker 3:I don't forget to give you a challenge coin holder. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Yes, I got to give you. We give that only to our guests, so see them out there. It's because I've been on the podcast. Anyways, let's go on three. You guys ready, let's do it. One, two, three, let's go. Bye everybody. Thank you so much for listening in. If you liked what you just listened to, please do this. A five star review on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify. Please follow us on YouTube, on Instagram and on Facebook. And a big shout out to Stephen Clark, our sound editor. He's a huge part of this team. That is unseen. It's 8, 9 Barbers, our first sponsor. Look good, feel good, be great. That's two locations Orange, california and Long Beach, california. Book your appointment online 89barberscom. Bye everybody.
